Une autre question d'artillerie de marquage

Une autre question d'artillerie de marquage
Chers amis,
Voici un autre petit mystère. Le mortier de siège français représenté est de 40 cm de long, avec alésage de 16 cm. Elle a été coulée à Douai en 1846. Je ne comprends pas le sens de la lettre script "M" sur le dessus. Peut-être que si je trouver la signification de ce "M" Je vais être en mesure de déchiffrer le «T»sur l'obusier qui j'ai demandé tout à l'heure.
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Another artillery marking question
Dear friends,
Here is another little mystery. The French siege mortar shown is 40 cm long, with bore of 16 cm. It was cast in Douai in 1846. I do not understand the meaning of the script letter "M" on the top. Perhaps if I find the meaning of this "M" I will be able to decipher the "T" on the howitzer which I asked about earlier.

One question?
Where do you find these 2 items?

M et T premier lettre du nom du fondeur.

M and T the first letter of the name of the founder.

>Where do you find these 2 items?

The mortar came from a famous antique gun dealer named Norman Flaydermann, about 25 years ago.

The howitzer came from a friend and gun collector who had it for 35 years. I had been begging him to sell it to me for 24 years when this year he finally agreed, as he had reached age 82. He got it from a gun dealer in Maryland USA, which in turn got it from the museum of a small college. The college got it via donation from the heirs of the Army officer mentioned in the howitzer topic.

M perhaps Maritz

http://www.stratisc.org/RIHM_81_NAULET.html

>M et T premier lettre du nom du fondeur.

>M and T the first letter of the name of the founder.

Thank you. Would you give me the full names of those founders so I can find additional information on them? Also, I have no reason to doubt what you say but it would help me to know where you found that information, or to know if it is a theory?

En 1667, Douai devient ville française. Louis XIV décide d'en faire un centre militaire important. Il y installe des casernes, un arsenal, l’École d’Artillerie et une fonderie de canons. Cette dernière est édifiée sur l'emplacement de l'ancien château des comtes de Flandre. Louis XIV en confie l’exploitation aux frères Keller, fondeurs suisses très réputés. En 1696, elle passe à la famille Bérenger et sera gérée par elle jusqu’en 1819. À partir de cette date et jusqu’à sa fermeture en 1867, elle sera dirigée par des officiers d’artillerie. Des bâtiments de la fonderie de Louis XIV, il ne reste aujourd’hui que le mur circulaire et le portail d’entrée. De nombreux canons en bronze sont sortis de la fonderie de Douai. Certains sont visibles en France (Hôtel des Invalides), en Angleterre (tour de Londres), en Autriche, Espagne, Portugal, et même aux États-Unis (musée de l’école de West Point). Chaque canon est une pièce unique ayant une carte d’identité avec l’inscription de son calibre, son poids, son nom, celui du fondeur, les armes de France. "La Furibonde", (dépôt du musée de l’Armée - Paris) est placée dans les jardins de la fonderie afin de rappeler cette production importante. Ce canon a été fondu à Douai en 1744 par Jean-François Bérenger, directeur de la fonderie. Il pèse 2 050 kg et porte les armes de Louis-Charles de Bourbon et un soleil, emblème du roi.

Thanks, the important part of that paragraph for me seems to be "en 1819. À partir de cette date et jusqu’à sa fermeture en 1867, elle sera dirigée par des officiers d’artillerie."

Perhaps if we can locate a list of senior artillery officers for the period, and where they were assigned, we can eventually locate names to correspond to those initials.

Chaque canon est une pièce unique ayant une carte d’identité avec l’inscription de son calibre, son poids, son nom, celui du fondeur, les armes de France.

I think it's impossible to find a listing of name of melters for this period.
Maybe in the army archiving but really not sure.

>I think it's impossible to find a listing of name of melters for this period.
Maybe in the army archiving but really not sure.

Thanks. I am a bit more optimistic, with tools like Google Books. As you probably know they have digitized a huge number of books in many languages. I go to that site and search within the books to find very granular information. I know some countries such as England prohibit Google books on the web; I have no idea of the situation in France.

cannonmn a écrit:

Perhaps if we can locate a list of senior artillery officers for the period, and where they were assigned, we can eventually locate names to correspond to those initials.

Excuse me, but I think this is the realm of the impossible.

>Perhaps if we can locate a list of senior artillery officers for the period, and where they were assigned, we can eventually locate names to correspond to those initials.

>>Excuse me, but I think this is the realm of the impossible

You could certainly be correct, especailly if for some reason the proper government documents do not survive.

For example, I was quite surprised when Invalides was unaware of the cannon founder from Rennes named Lecourant. They had no record of that company, however I have two French military cannons (one Navy, one Army) made by that founder. There are other cannons and bells cast by Lecourant in French museums.

In the USA, we have artillery collector books containing complete lists of all U.S. government cannon inspectors and founders (for the Confederate government also) beginning in about 1800. I guess that is why I am surprised there would not be similar resources in France.

Thanks again for your assistance with my questions.

This is the kind of document I had in mind. The officers I'm looking for, with names beginning with "T" and "M" can be found in "annuaire officiel de l'armée française. " This is a sample page only, because the first one I found on Google Books was for 1828, of course prior to the period of interest for me. You can see the artillery officers have their own section, organized in order of decreasing rank and date of rank. The officers assigned at Douai are identified as such, and their title while on duty is given. The entire list of artillery officers is several pages long. Now I will need to find the volumes for 1843 and for 1846.

1843

Thank you Sir, that's wonderful! This is the culmination of many hours of searching, and is greatly appreciated! I have of course more unanswered French cannon questions concerning other pieces lying around here and will post them as time permits.

One of the things I do is act as moderator for the forum of the Company of Military Historians. The forum index is here, if you would like to take a look sometime, and perhaps post some questions about military artifacts or military history. We have many members who are fluent in French. You may post topics there as a guest up to five times before joining the Company. http://www.military-historians.org/cmh/member/member.cgi

Annuaire 1846 :

Tournaire Guillaume Lieutenant-colonel Directeur de la Fonderie de Douai date de nomination 10 février 1843

Best regards

Thanks. Here's an obituary for Lt. Col. Tournaire., in Google Boolks. I don't know if you have the same problem as my friends in the UK, who cannot see Google Books due to some legal issue. http://books.google.com/books?id=Nb4AAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA601&ots=SAYnQ-Ukla&dq=%22tournaire%22%20douai&pg=PA601#v=onepage&q=%22tournaire%22%20douai&f=false

Here's a google book with an extensive description of the operation at the Douai foundry, in French, including a comprehensive list of Chef d'escadron for many years, including the "M" guy, Lt. Col. Mocquard.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4ai_yV10zzQC&dq=douai%20chef%20d'escadron&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q=douai%20chef%20d'escadron&f=false

If you can't access it in France, I can simply paste it into the forum. It is a bit lengthy.